From billcu1 at verizon.net Sat Oct 8 08:06:53 2005 From: billcu1 at verizon.net (Bill Cunningham) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 18:06:53 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] ancient unixes Message-ID: <000e01c5cb8b$6da13020$2f01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> Has anyone had the idea to take the ancient unix, at least in spirit into the modern age? Bill From wkt at tuhs.org Sat Oct 8 09:58:38 2005 From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 09:58:38 +1000 Subject: [TUHS] ancient unixes In-Reply-To: <000e01c5cb8b$6da13020$2f01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> References: <000e01c5cb8b$6da13020$2f01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> Message-ID: <20051007235838.GA72556@minnie.tuhs.org> On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 06:06:53PM -0400, Bill Cunningham wrote: > Has anyone had the idea to take the ancient unix, at least in spirit > into the modern age? Plan 9? Warren From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca Sat Oct 8 13:28:00 2005 From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 23:28:00 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] ancient unixes Message-ID: <20051008033237.287F899@minnie.tuhs.org> Bill Cunningham: Has anyone had the idea to take the ancient unix, at least in spirit into the modern age? Warren Toomey: Plan 9? ======= Plan 9 is to UNIX as SVr4.2.2.2.2.2.2 is to Sixth Edition. If that's the spirit of the modern age, give me the good old leather-bound days, without all that modern rhythm- type dancing and hooting and waving. Norman Wilson Toronto ON PS: This message is not intended to supply the minimum daily requirement of serious thought. Consult your doctor or pharmacist, but not the one that just sent you electronic junk mail or promises to make explicit drugs fast. From txomsy at yahoo.es Mon Oct 10 19:37:24 2005 From: txomsy at yahoo.es (Jose R Valverde) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 11:37:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [TUHS] Ancient unixes Message-ID: <20051010093724.48531.qmail@web26103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Waddayamean? I mean: what does it mean to you 'the spirit of ancient Unix'? If by that you mean the fact that they were simple, slim and efficient, doing one simple thing and doing it right, you may then consider the effort by ast in the 80's with MINIX. OK, it used it's own microkernel, but the basic idea is the same... and has been followed on by Mach, BSD-lites, Flex, MacOS X, Tru64, Linux on L4, etc... As a matter of fact I always felt UNIX after v7 got it wrong: e.g. network data is no longer another stream (I'd have loved it to be a file system with directories representing network addresses and ports being files or pipes). Thus, later unices increased complexity by abandoning the simlicity of the original design. If that is the case, Plan 9 is a good update. And so is Inferno. Actually, I always felt that many additions to UNIX might have been better implemented outside the kernel if only the kernel had been expanded to allow user-mode expansions. But that's already here with kernel modules in Linux, BSDs, Solaris, etc... which are becoming more and more microkernelized each day. As microkernels become bigger :-) OTOH, if you mean adding 'modern' services, perhaps QNX is doing it with its support for Real-time. Or adding dynamic libraries, networking, modern virtual memory (beyond swapping), etc... which at the plainest level is what more or less likeably all modern UNIX have done. Extending into the future? Distributed computing, clusters, etc? Like some commercial UNIX, Amoeba, Inferno and the like? If you only mean resurrecting these ancient UNIX on modern hardware, there have been initiatives to rewrite v7 alike systems for other architectures (say OMU, UZI, MINIX, Coherent, Xinu, etc.). But for that you already have emulators that provide you the original flavor at even higher speeds in a virtualized environment. So? waddayamean? I think the answer to your question is YES! Lots of people have tried to improve ancient UNIX more or less successfully, and many people is still trying, using microkernels, no-kernels, adding RT, VM, dynamic libraries, kernel modules, etc... Each with their own approach. This said, if I were to pick an initiative that gets closest to the wishes of the original designers, that should undoubtedly be Plan 9 and its successor, Inferno, as they are what the 'Original Designers' themselves have done when they tried to repeat it doing it 'right' (or at least better) no matter what my personal opinions regarding the issue may be. Regarding my opinion, yes, I would go for the good old leather-bound days of IBM mainframes with MVS. (zOS?) which oddly enough are finally reaching the rest of us with Xen and emulators like QEMU. If I were to wish, I'd like a no-kernel approach (everything independent, cooperating, hot-substitutable, fully migratable processes) over a virtualizing system that allows me to run several OSs and update/change any OS component on the fly without service interruption, and to migrate everything between machines on demand ('cos of overload or hw failures or whatever, or just 'cos I wish to). Now, _that_ would IMHO be close to ultimate OS design: something that can always be updated on the fly and may survive any change, something that can adapt and evolve without interruption or even the user noticing. But that is a complex enough concept to expect most system programmers to grasp, let alone sysadmins, programmers or users not to pervert. Not to talk of salesmen and marketroids! j -- Jose R. Valverde EMBnet/CNB ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, más seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From johnzulu at yahoo.com Tue Oct 11 16:17:30 2005 From: johnzulu at yahoo.com (John Chung) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 23:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient Unix. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051011061730.93702.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There has been a lot of talk about ancient unix lately. I do know there are quite a few ports for the ancient unix but the main question is it legal? It is possible to port and distribute the port without the warth of the company that owns the IP? Regards, John Chung __________________________________ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ From grog at lemis.com Tue Oct 11 16:32:27 2005 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:02:27 +0930 Subject: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient Unix. In-Reply-To: <20051011061730.93702.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20051011061730.93702.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051011063227.GB49168@wantadilla.lemis.com> On Monday, 10 October 2005 at 23:17:30 -0700, John Chung wrote: > There has been a lot of talk about ancient unix > lately. I do know there are quite a few ports for the > ancient unix but the main question is it legal? It is > possible to port and distribute the port without the > warth of the company that owns the IP? Yes, it's legal. Our good friends Caldera (now known as SCO) released Ancient UNIX under a BSD-style license a few years back. See http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/ for further details. Greg -- Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 187 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de Tue Oct 11 16:38:17 2005 From: Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de (Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 08:38:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient Unix. In-Reply-To: <20051011061730.93702.qmail@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi John, On 11-Oct-2005 John Chung wrote: > There has been a lot of talk about ancient unix > lately. I do know there are quite a few ports for the > ancient unix but the main question is it legal? It is > possible to port and distribute the port without the > warth of the company that owns the IP? > > Regards, > John Chung it is legal to use, modify, and distribute code based on UNIX Versions 1..7 and 32V, to the best of my knowledge; see http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf Regards, Hellwig Geisse ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de Date: 11-Oct-2005 Time: 08:32:09 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- From duncangareth at yahoo.co.uk Tue Oct 11 22:35:44 2005 From: duncangareth at yahoo.co.uk (Duncan Anderson) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:35:44 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient Unix. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434BB1A0.1070603@yahoo.co.uk> Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de wrote: >Hi John, > >On 11-Oct-2005 John Chung wrote: > > >>There has been a lot of talk about ancient unix >>lately. I do know there are quite a few ports for the >>ancient unix but the main question is it legal? It is >>possible to port and distribute the port without the >>warth of the company that owns the IP? >> >>Regards, >>John Chung >> >> > >it is legal to use, modify, and distribute code >based on UNIX Versions 1..7 and 32V, to the best >of my knowledge; see >http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf > >Regards, >Hellwig Geisse > > Does anyone know where and how one obtains the "ancient unix" sources, particularly 32V? Who does one speak to? regards Duncan ___________________________________________________________ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com From Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de Wed Oct 12 00:18:33 2005 From: Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de (Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:18:33 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient Unix. In-Reply-To: <434BB1A0.1070603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi Duncan, On 11-Oct-2005 Duncan Anderson wrote: > Does anyone know where and how one obtains the "ancient unix" sources, > particularly 32V? > > Who does one speak to? > > regards > Duncan the best source I know of is http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/ (not very surprising, I guess). In subdirectory VAX/Distributions/32V you find the file 32v_usr.tar.gz. Unpack this file, then go to the subdirectory /usr/src/sys. Regards, Hellwig ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de Date: 11-Oct-2005 Time: 16:04:42 This message was sent by XFMail ---------------------------------- From txomsy at yahoo.es Wed Oct 12 00:26:20 2005 From: txomsy at yahoo.es (Jose R Valverde) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:26:20 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient Unix. Message-ID: <20051011142620.82167.qmail@web26103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >Does anyone know where and how one obtains the "ancient unix" sources, >particularly 32V? Pardon? Obviously, at TUHS! www.tuhs.org particularly ftp://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixArchive/VAX/Distributions/32V j ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, más seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From duncangareth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 12 00:30:17 2005 From: duncangareth at yahoo.co.uk (Duncan Anderson) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:30:17 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient Unix. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <434BCC79.7040303@yahoo.co.uk> Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de wrote: >Hi Duncan, > >On 11-Oct-2005 Duncan Anderson wrote: > > >>Does anyone know where and how one obtains the "ancient unix" sources, >>particularly 32V? >> >>Who does one speak to? >> >>regards >>Duncan >> >> > >the best source I know of is >http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/ >(not very surprising, I guess). >In subdirectory VAX/Distributions/32V >you find the file 32v_usr.tar.gz. >Unpack this file, then go to the >subdirectory /usr/src/sys. > >Regards, >Hellwig > > Thanks. I should have checked. The last time I looked, probably 2 years ago, I don't think it was there. regards Duncan ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From duncangareth at yahoo.co.uk Wed Oct 12 00:32:01 2005 From: duncangareth at yahoo.co.uk (Duncan Anderson) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 16:32:01 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient Unix. In-Reply-To: <20051011142620.82167.qmail@web26103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20051011142620.82167.qmail@web26103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <434BCCE1.6020704@yahoo.co.uk> Jose R Valverde wrote: >>Does anyone know where and how one obtains the >> >> >"ancient unix" sources, > > >>particularly 32V? >> >> > >Pardon? > >Obviously, at TUHS! > > www.tuhs.org > >particularly > > >ftp://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixArchive/VAX/Distributions/32V > > > Right! Sorry, I should have checked. I haven't looked at the archives for years. cheers Duncan ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From billcu1 at verizon.net Wed Oct 12 05:46:04 2005 From: billcu1 at verizon.net (Bill Cunningham) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:46:04 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient Unix. References: <434BCC79.7040303@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <002501c5ce9c$6b1b52e0$2f01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duncan Anderson" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient Unix. > Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de wrote: > > >Hi Duncan, > > > >On 11-Oct-2005 Duncan Anderson wrote: > > > > > >>Does anyone know where and how one obtains the "ancient unix" sources, > >>particularly 32V? > >> > >>Who does one speak to? > >> > >>regards > >>Duncan Well Bell owned the old UNIXs. Ask Dennis or Ken. They probably know a lot about that. Currently the Open Group ownes the UNIX trademark. Bill From billcu1 at verizon.net Wed Oct 12 05:48:45 2005 From: billcu1 at verizon.net (Bill Cunningham) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:48:45 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient Unix. References: <434BB1A0.1070603@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <003601c5ce9c$caf68220$2f01a8c0@myhome.westell.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duncan Anderson" To: Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient Unix. > Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de wrote: > > >Hi John, > > > >On 11-Oct-2005 John Chung wrote: > > > > > >>There has been a lot of talk about ancient unix > >>lately. I do know there are quite a few ports for the > >>ancient unix but the main question is it legal? It is > >>possible to port and distribute the port without the > >>warth of the company that owns the IP? > >> > >>Regards, > >>John Chung > >> > >> > > > >it is legal to use, modify, and distribute code > >based on UNIX Versions 1..7 and 32V, to the best > >of my knowledge; see > >http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf > > > >Regards, > >Hellwig Geisse Try The Open Group. Bill From txomsy at yahoo.es Wed Oct 12 07:23:00 2005 From: txomsy at yahoo.es (Jose R Valverde) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 23:23:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient UNIX Message-ID: <20051011212300.48800.qmail@web26109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Well, if I remember well, there was this little nifty legal argument between ATT USL and UCB BSDI in the early '90s that was settled out of court. One of the factors that helped settle (again if I remember well) was that ATT had failed to adequately state its Copyright on UNIX version 32V (may be more, my memory's weak) that had been distributed in source code, and hence those sources by the then current Copyright law, had fallen in the Public Domain. Then, if my recollection is right (better look at the documents on the case available on dmr's web page), you could do as you well damn please with those sources. http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/bsdi/bsdisuit.html >From one of the rulings: "Consequently, I find that Plaintiff has failed to demonstrate a likelihood that it can successfully defend its copyright in 32V. Plaintiff's claims of copyright violations are not a basis for injunctive relief." For others, the license otorgued by Caldera when they released the source (a BSD look-alike) would allow you to as well to a large extent. No need to go to the Open Group. Besides, they own the trademark (i.e. you could not call the product UNIX without their permission) but not the code (besides their own microkernel developments). j ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, más seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Oct 12 07:39:16 2005 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 15:39:16 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [TUHS] Legality of porting ancient UNIX In-Reply-To: <20051011212300.48800.qmail@web26109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20051011212300.48800.qmail@web26109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20051011.153916.36665578.imp@bsdimp.com> In message: <20051011212300.48800.qmail at web26109.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Jose R Valverde writes: One of the : factors that helped settle (again if I remember well) was that ATT : had failed to adequately state its Copyright on UNIX version 32V : (may be more, my memory's weak) that had been distributed in source : code, and hence those sources by the then current Copyright law, had : fallen in the Public Domain. The text you quoted makes it clear that the judge didn't rule that they had fallen into the public domain. He'd ruled that he didn't think that AT&T would be successful at demonstrating a good copyright title to the code if the matter went to trial. A subtle difference, to be sure, but an important one. However, given that caldera released them with a bsd-like license, I think the issue is effectively moot at this point... Warner From dubhthach at compsoc.nuigalway.ie Thu Oct 13 08:50:52 2005 From: dubhthach at compsoc.nuigalway.ie (Paul Duffy) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:50:52 +0100 (IST) Subject: [TUHS] Status of "32i" Message-ID: Hi, Been reading through the list, just wondering did anything further come of the whole 32V/i project? Last mail about it i see was back in April 2004. -Paul "There is no greater sorrow then to remember times of happiness when miserable" -- Dante "The Inferno" From brantley at coraid.com Sat Oct 15 23:57:49 2005 From: brantley at coraid.com (Brantley Coile) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:57:49 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Ancient unixes Message-ID: <01b907ad0f646a3551b1b76472f03640@coraid.com> this name `internet' name space was considered and rejected. it's harder than one would think to get details right for all networks, the addess is only a small part of the information needed for the connection, and keeping a name space for all the internet updated would be very hard. instead they use a network!machine!port syntax with the dial command. you can follow the full development of those ideas in the following papers. http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/who/dmr/spe.html http://cm.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/net/net.html remember. seventh edition was relase in 1977. Jimmy Carter was president, ``Anne Hall'' won best picture, and the Chevy Nova was a big hit. From brantley at coraid.com Sun Oct 16 01:02:59 2005 From: brantley at coraid.com (Brantley Coile) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:02:59 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Ancient unixes In-Reply-To: <20051015.085932.17381905.imp@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: <393475d42d1fea7d696658bfaeca5f0a@coraid.com> oops. sorry. it is http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/spe.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 38 URL: From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Oct 16 00:59:32 2005 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 08:59:32 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [TUHS] Ancient unixes In-Reply-To: <01b907ad0f646a3551b1b76472f03640@coraid.com> References: <01b907ad0f646a3551b1b76472f03640@coraid.com> Message-ID: <20051015.085932.17381905.imp@bsdimp.com> In message: <01b907ad0f646a3551b1b76472f03640 at coraid.com> Brantley Coile writes: : http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/who/dmr/spe.html Is there maybe a typo here? I get file not found. Warner --upas-qhcplmbvngjtdvuflagvgfqecp-- From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net Sun Oct 16 01:49:16 2005 From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:49:16 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Ancient unixes In-Reply-To: <393475d42d1fea7d696658bfaeca5f0a@coraid.com> Message-ID: <001501c5d1a0$07ea5f20$6501a8c0@who7> Hello from Gregg C Levine Are you sure now? I also get a 404 error message on the enclosed location. --- Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net --- "Remember the Force will be with you. Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi > -----Original Message----- > From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On > Behalf Of Brantley Coile > Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 11:03 AM > To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org > Subject: Re: [TUHS] Ancient unixes > > oops. sorry. it is > > http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/spe.html From brantley at coraid.com Sun Oct 16 07:55:49 2005 From: brantley at coraid.com (Brantley Coile) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 17:55:49 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Ancient unixes In-Reply-To: <001501c5d1a0$07ea5f20$6501a8c0@who7> Message-ID: <542ac21d33d242eb7648934ec208ef75@coraid.com> Okay, for the third time. (maybe the charm?) http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/spe.pdf http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/ipcpaper.html sorry for not checking the links before i posted the note. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: unknown sender Subject: no subject Date: no date Size: 38 URL: From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net Sun Oct 16 01:49:16 2005 From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 11:49:16 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Ancient unixes In-Reply-To: <393475d42d1fea7d696658bfaeca5f0a@coraid.com> Message-ID: <001501c5d1a0$07ea5f20$6501a8c0@who7> Hello from Gregg C Levine Are you sure now? I also get a 404 error message on the enclosed location. --- Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net --- "Remember the Force will be with you. Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi > -----Original Message----- > From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On > Behalf Of Brantley Coile > Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 11:03 AM > To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org > Subject: Re: [TUHS] Ancient unixes > > oops. sorry. it is > > http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/spe.html --upas-wpsmccvexzrkqetviipbreovzf-- From robertdkeys at aol.com Wed Oct 19 13:00:34 2005 From: robertdkeys at aol.com (robertdkeys at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 23:00:34 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Bringing up any 4.3BSD on a MicroVAX without tape.... In-Reply-To: <001501c5d1a0$07ea5f20$6501a8c0@who7> Message-ID: <8C7A270687203DA-1120-B77@MBLK-M39.sysops.aol.com> Hello to the list, from a lurker, supposedly retired, but.... having run across one last MVIII crate for a lowly buck, in surplus..... you know the rest. It just has to run some form of ancient BSD again.....(:+}}..... Anyway, it is sans tape, and all my TK50 cartridges have decomposed to dusty oxide, so it will have be resurrected from something other than tape. As luck has it, it has a scsi controller, and I happened to have a scsi floppy from a decishbox long since gone to the great bit crusher in the sky. So, with some prodding it booted off a NetBSD 1.4.1 vax floppy and was made to run NetBSD 1.4.3 as a starter, to get the rest of the early BSD bits onto the machine. After making fsck trip all over itself, and pushing some Tahoe and Reno bits onto it, it now RUNS Tahoe (q0c variety) or Reno (archive variety) quite happily. The problem is that it won't install boot blocks that work. None of the raboot/rdboot/bootra/bootrd combos get any farther than the cryptic "loading boot" message. The machine locks up hard then. Yet, I can boot and run things fine off a NetBSD 1.1A VAX tk50 boot file ("stand") dd'd to that lonely scsi floppy off the far end of the bus, with the usual b/3 duaX.... followed by "ra0a" as the root and ^D to multiuser baby. Years ago, the first time around, I had this working fine, but, when I backed up the then running system, I forgot (like a dummy) to dd off a set of working boot blocks or a working bootable root. Ahh, stupid me.....(:+}}..... The nearest that I can tell is that it is not writing (using the disklabel executable) a correct set of block addresses to find the real /boot and kernel. Once, however done, the kernel is actually loaded, it runs fine (like off NetBSD tape boot "stand"). Any of you old timers got any thoughts as to where my suite is going afoul of the real way? It is probably something quite simple, but, my greymatters just can't seem to get it figured out. Any insights are appreciated. Thanks! Bob Keys Olde Pfarte with too many VAXentoyz.....(:+}}..... From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Oct 19 13:52:49 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 05 03:52:49 GMT Subject: [TUHS] Bringing up any 4.3BSD on a MicroVAX without tape.... Message-ID: <0510190352.AA14346@ivan.Harhan.ORG> robertdkeys at aol.com wrote: > The problem is that it won't install boot blocks that work. > None of the raboot/rdboot/bootra/bootrd combos get > any farther than the cryptic "loading boot" message. The "loading boot" message comes from the bootblock code and indicates that the bootblocks are good and working. If it stops there, it means that you are missing the /boot file in the root filesystem (that's what it's loading). MS From gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 14:25:13 2005 From: gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com (Gregg Levine) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 00:25:13 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Bringing up any 4.3BSD on a MicroVAX without tape.... In-Reply-To: <0510190352.AA14346@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510190352.AA14346@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <18d205ed0510182125t372868abq6f5ed051bf67409f@mail.gmail.com> Hello from Gregg C Levine I have here a DEC VAXstation 3100M76. It is in the same boat as the one Robert is writing about. I know I can install NetBSD/vax on it using the net boot concept. But I'd like to run one of the appropriate distributions from "our" collection. Any suggestions? -- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com "This signature was once found posting rude messages in English in the Moscow subway." On 10/18/05, Michael Sokolov wrote: > robertdkeys at aol.com wrote: > > > The problem is that it won't install boot blocks that work. > > None of the raboot/rdboot/bootra/bootrd combos get > > any farther than the cryptic "loading boot" message. > > The "loading boot" message comes from the bootblock code and indicates > that the bootblocks are good and working. If it stops there, it means > that you are missing the /boot file in the root filesystem (that's what > it's loading). > > MS > _______________________________________________ > TUHS mailing list > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs > From robertdkeys at aol.com Thu Oct 20 03:28:31 2005 From: robertdkeys at aol.com (robertdkeys at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:28:31 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Bringing up any 4.3BSD on a MicroVAX without tape.... In-Reply-To: <0510190352.AA14346@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0510190352.AA14346@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <8C7A2E9A944405A-3FC-1254@mblk-d42.sysops.aol.com> The /boot is there, so it is somewhere between the bootblocks and /boot that the connection is lost. The /boot is apparently not correctly found. But, it is there...... Bob Keys -----Original Message----- > The problem is that it won't install boot blocks that work. > None of the raboot/rdboot/bootra/bootrd combos get > any farther than the cryptic "loading boot" message. The "loading boot" message comes from the bootblock code and indicates that the bootblocks are good and working. If it stops there, it means that you are missing the /boot file in the root filesystem (that's what it's loading). MS -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arnold at skeeve.com Thu Oct 20 17:36:52 2005 From: arnold at skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 09:36:52 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Bringing up any 4.3BSD on a MicroVAX without tape.... Message-ID: <200510200736.j9K7aqga003340@skeeve.com> Wasn't there an "installboot" program that told the bootblock where to find the /boot file? Boy was it a lllloooonnnngggg time ago that I dealt with this stuff. Arnold > Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:28:31 -0400 > From: robertdkeys at aol.com > Subject: Re: [TUHS] Bringing up any 4.3BSD on a MicroVAX without tape.... > To: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG, tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org > > The /boot is there, so it is somewhere between the bootblocks > and /boot that the connection is lost. The /boot is apparently > not correctly found. But, it is there...... > > Bob Keys > > -----Original Message----- > > > The problem is that it won't install boot blocks that work. > > None of the raboot/rdboot/bootra/bootrd combos get > > any farther than the cryptic "loading boot" message. > > The "loading boot" message comes from the bootblock code and indicates > that the bootblocks are good and working. If it stops there, it means > that you are missing the /boot file in the root filesystem (that's what > it's loading). > > MS From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Oct 21 02:57:53 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 05 16:57:53 GMT Subject: [TUHS] Bringing up any 4.3BSD on a MicroVAX without tape.... Message-ID: <0510201657.AA16789@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Aharon Robbins wrote: > Wasn't there an "installboot" program that told the bootblock where > to find the /boot file? The installboot program in the original 4.3BSD, whose function has been incorporated into disklabel(8) in 4.3-Tahoe/Quasijarus, writes the boot blocks to the disk, but it does not patch them with the location of /boot, the bootblock code is smart enough to understand the filesystem. As for Robert's problem, I don't know where he got screwed - but man, use your head, what do you think your god-given brain is for? You can single-step through the code with the MicroVAX ROM monitor's N command, you can put some printf's in the code to see where it dies, etc, the possibilities are limitless. Just debug it the same way you would debug any other problem. What do you think I do when I get a similar mysterious snafu? I debug it like a real programmer, don't go crying to a mailing list. MS From robertdkeys at aol.com Fri Oct 21 01:04:04 2005 From: robertdkeys at aol.com (robertdkeys at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:04:04 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Bringing up any 4.3BSD on a MicroVAX without tape.... In-Reply-To: <200510200736.j9K7aqga003340@skeeve.com> References: <200510200736.j9K7aqga003340@skeeve.com> Message-ID: <8C7A39EA5BD08D9-E80-4162@FWM-R06.sysops.aol.com> Yes, there is an installboot buried, uncompiled in the sources that is pretty much the same identical source from 4.2-4.4. I have dug that out, just in case. But, disklabel, I was thinking was supposed to handle that. Maybe it doesn't do that correctly? Could there be anything in the hardware settings (CMD controller)? I wouldn't think so, since all the other OS's work fine. I have a set of root dd images from a friend's working machine. Maybe I should hexdump the front end of the drives and compare them to see where things have gone afoul. I haven't actively read hexdumps in years, so that ought to be fun to try.....(:+\\..... Anyone remember which exact disklabel or installboot incantation was used? I recall that the first boot sector had to be rdboot on a MicroVAX, but the second boot block could be rdboot or raboot. I tried both combos of rd+rd or rd+ra and never got past the "loading boot" msg. /boot is there in the root fs. What is curious is that these things supposedly boot fine in simh, but on my real hardware (and a friend's VAX, too), they don't. Could it be anything strange like odd bytes carried over in the bootblock or disklabel area or start of the fs causing it to lock up? Probably not, but, stranger things have happened..... Maybe a dd fill of the front few tracks of the drive might help? Since I am not installing from tape, but manually from another OS, could there be anything in the install scripts I am inadvertently missing? So close and yet so far.... Bob Keys -----Original Message----- Wasn't there an "installboot" program that told the bootblock where to find the /boot file? Boy was it a lllloooonnnngggg time ago that I dealt with this stuff. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Oct 21 17:52:41 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 09:52:41 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Bringing up any 4.3BSD on a MicroVAX without tape.... In-Reply-To: <8C7A39EA5BD08D9-E80-4162@FWM-R06.sysops.aol.com> References: <200510200736.j9K7aqga003340@skeeve.com> <8C7A39EA5BD08D9-E80-4162@FWM-R06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20051021095241.198c5ef9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:04:04 -0400 robertdkeys at aol.com wrote: > Could there be anything in the hardware settings (CMD controller)? I dim remember that the CMD SCSI MSCP controllers behave slightly different then the DEC MSCP controllers. I think NetBSD had problems with some CMD SCSI MSCP controllers at one point in time. Maybe you can scan the port-vax at NetBSD mailing list archive... -- tschüß, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From txomsy at yahoo.es Fri Oct 21 22:31:52 2005 From: txomsy at yahoo.es (Jose R Valverde) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2005 14:31:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [TUHS] Bringing up any 4.3BSD on a MicroVAX without tape.... Message-ID: <20051021123153.82844.qmail@web26110.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >It is in the same boat as the one Robert is writing >about. I know I can install NetBSD/vax on it using the >net boot concept. But I'd like to run one of the >appropriate distributions from "our" collection. Any >suggestions? The most obivous ones are - Quasijarus - Ultrix-32M -- ultrix 1.2 is in the archives -- from ifctvax.harhan.org you can get sources for ultrix 2.0.0 ultrix 4.2.0 (see previous posts in the list) - 32V j ______________________________________________ Renovamos el Correo Yahoo! Nuevos servicios, más seguridad http://correo.yahoo.es