From michael at kjorling.se Fri Jul 1 00:23:34 2022 From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 14:23:34 +0000 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] "9 skills our grandkids won't have" - Is this a TUHS topic? In-Reply-To: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: <4373e29c-d2a9-4964-9721-2a006304bf91@home.arpa> On 30 Jun 2022 23:14 +1000, from sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin): > What are the 1970’s & 1980’s Computing / IT skills “our grandkids won’t have”? Tediously typing computer programs into their (or others') systems from listings in printed magazines bought in and brought home from a store (by which I mean the physical, brick-and-mortar kind), only to spend anywhere from minutes to days figuring out why the program doesn't do what the magazine says it will, if it even works at all. This thread should probably be on COFF, not TUHS. -- Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?” From sauer at technologists.com Fri Jul 1 08:02:20 2022 From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer (he/him)) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2022 17:02:20 -0500 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] "9 skills our grandkids won't have" - Is this a TUHS topic? In-Reply-To: <4373e29c-d2a9-4964-9721-2a006304bf91@home.arpa> References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> <4373e29c-d2a9-4964-9721-2a006304bf91@home.arpa> Message-ID: On 6/30/2022 9:23 AM, Michael Kjörling wrote: > On 30 Jun 2022 23:14 +1000, from sjenkin at canb.auug.org.au (steve jenkin): >> What are the 1970’s & 1980’s Computing / IT skills “our grandkids won’t have”? ... > This thread should probably be on COFF, not TUHS. (pre-Unix) dealing with punched cards and paper tape -- my first contact with PDP-8 was via paper tape -- I brought my dissertation programs to IBM in boxes of punch cards. Changing Selectric type balls -- the first office terminal I had at IBM Yorktown (in 1975) was a 1050, similar to a 2741, and my first home terminal (in 1980!) was a 2741. -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer at technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Twitter: CharlesHSauer From grog at lemis.com Sat Jul 2 10:12:09 2022 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 10:12:09 +1000 Subject: [COFF] "9 skills our grandkids won't have" - Is this a TUHS topic? In-Reply-To: References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: <20220702001209.GC32390@eureka.lemis.com> [Redirecting to COFF] On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 16:05:30 +0300, Ori Idan wrote: > On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 7:38 PM Paul Winalski > wrote: > >> >> o why a memory access violation is reported as "segmentation fault" or >> "bus error", and the difference between the two >> >> o why CTRL/D is used to end a shell command line session > > I am not sure I know that, I'd be happy to know. It's the ASCII control character EOT (end of transmission). >> o why CTRL/S and CTRL/Q are used for flow control in a shell command >> line session >> > Also would be happy to know. Also ASCII control characters: XON (^S) and XOFF (^Q). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C0_and_C1_control_codes#Device_control tells me: DC1 and DC3 (known also as XON and XOFF respectively in this usage) originated as the "start and stop remote paper-tape-reader" functions in ASCII Telex networks. This teleprinter usage became the de facto standard for software flow control.[13] Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grog at lemis.com Sat Jul 2 10:08:28 2022 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 10:08:28 +1000 Subject: [COFF] "9 skills our grandkids won't have" - Is this a TUHS topic? In-Reply-To: <67e0d22c-e70b-e9bb-4614-eb1426bf2bd0@gmail.com> References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> <20220701004118.GA22338@tau1.ceti.pl> <67e0d22c-e70b-e9bb-4614-eb1426bf2bd0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20220702000828.GB32390@eureka.lemis.com> [Redirected to COFF] On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: > Tomasz Rola [01/07/2022 02.41]: > > I recall reading about some movie, whose fans >> were unable to understand why a protagonist took film (celuloid) to >> some "red room". They suggested it was for making photos sharper. > > Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least > not from the 1970s and on. ... Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used since long before that. Another thing that the film industry continually gets wrong. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grog at lemis.com Sat Jul 2 10:04:44 2022 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 10:04:44 +1000 Subject: [COFF] "9 skills our grandkids won't have" - Is this a TUHS topic? In-Reply-To: References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> <20220630212153.GD11191@mcvoy.com> <20220630215445.GF11191@mcvoy.com> <171E1A5A-268F-44EE-967E-5EF49004F824@csp-partnership.co.uk> Message-ID: <20220702000443.GA32390@eureka.lemis.com> [Redirected to COFF] On Thursday, 30 June 2022 at 15:18:50 -0700, Rik Schneider wrote: > Using a cheap pocket AM radio as an improvised signal probe. Heh. It's only been 5 years since I bought a "transistor" radio for almost exactly that purpose, to track down damage to an electric fence. It didn't work :-( Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grog at lemis.com Sat Jul 2 10:12:09 2022 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 10:12:09 +1000 Subject: [COFF] "9 skills our grandkids won't have" - Is this a TUHS topic? In-Reply-To: References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> Message-ID: <20220702001209.GC32390@eureka.lemis.com> [Redirecting to COFF] On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 16:05:30 +0300, Ori Idan wrote: > On Thu, Jun 30, 2022 at 7:38 PM Paul Winalski > wrote: > >> >> o why a memory access violation is reported as "segmentation fault" or >> "bus error", and the difference between the two >> >> o why CTRL/D is used to end a shell command line session > > I am not sure I know that, I'd be happy to know. It's the ASCII control character EOT (end of transmission). >> o why CTRL/S and CTRL/Q are used for flow control in a shell command >> line session >> > Also would be happy to know. Also ASCII control characters: XON (^S) and XOFF (^Q). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C0_and_C1_control_codes#Device_control tells me: DC1 and DC3 (known also as XON and XOFF respectively in this usage) originated as the "start and stop remote paper-tape-reader" functions in ASCII Telex networks. This teleprinter usage became the de facto standard for software flow control.[13] Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From grog at lemis.com Sat Jul 2 11:26:41 2022 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 11:26:41 +1000 Subject: [COFF] Safelights (was: "9 skills our grandkids won't have") In-Reply-To: References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> <20220701004118.GA22338@tau1.ceti.pl> <67e0d22c-e70b-e9bb-4614-eb1426bf2bd0@gmail.com> <20220702000828.GB32390@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20220702012641.GA84351@eureka.lemis.com> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 17:57:35 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: > On Jul 1, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: >>> Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least >>> not from the 1970s and on. ... >> >> Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we >> used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used >> since long before that. > > When I learned film photography in the mid 1980s the darkroom had > red lights. Of course it was a very old darkroom in a middle school, > so I'm sure that _adequate_ darkrooms had better equipment. Hmm. Any idea how old the equipment is? I suppose you wouldn't expect people to replace existing, functional equipment without good reason. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sauer at technologists.com Sat Jul 2 12:24:28 2022 From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H. Sauer) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 21:24:28 -0500 Subject: [COFF] Safelights (was: "9 skills our grandkids won't have") In-Reply-To: <20220702012641.GA84351@eureka.lemis.com> References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> <20220701004118.GA22338@tau1.ceti.pl> <67e0d22c-e70b-e9bb-4614-eb1426bf2bd0@gmail.com> <20220702000828.GB32390@eureka.lemis.com> <20220702012641.GA84351@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: I recall three darkrooms that I used, in 1960 a makeshift one in bathroom in my home, a regular one in an armory in Greenbelt MD about the same time, and one in the student union at UT Austin about 1970. All three used red lights IIRC. > On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:26 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 17:57:35 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: >> On Jul 1, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: >>>> Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least >>>> not from the 1970s and on. ... >>> >>> Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we >>> used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used >>> since long before that. >> >> When I learned film photography in the mid 1980s the darkroom had >> red lights. Of course it was a very old darkroom in a middle school, >> so I'm sure that _adequate_ darkrooms had better equipment. > > Hmm. Any idea how old the equipment is? I suppose you wouldn't > expect people to replace existing, functional equipment without good > reason. > > Greg > -- > Sent from my desktop computer. > Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -- voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer at technologists.com fax: +1.512.346.5240 web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lm at mcvoy.com Sat Jul 2 12:35:02 2022 From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 19:35:02 -0700 Subject: [COFF] Safelights (was: "9 skills our grandkids won't have") In-Reply-To: References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> <20220701004118.GA22338@tau1.ceti.pl> <67e0d22c-e70b-e9bb-4614-eb1426bf2bd0@gmail.com> <20220702000828.GB32390@eureka.lemis.com> <20220702012641.GA84351@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20220702023502.GE11191@mcvoy.com> I was a photography nerd in the 1980's and we used red lights. As nerdy as I was, I remember those times with fond memories. Something special about putting the paper in the mix and seeing the picture come out of nowhere. And the power you had with dodging to bring what you wanted into focus. On Fri, Jul 01, 2022 at 09:24:28PM -0500, Charles H. Sauer wrote: > I recall three darkrooms that I used, in 1960 a makeshift one in bathroom in my home, > a regular one in an armory in Greenbelt MD about the same time, and one in the student union at UT Austin about 1970. All three used red lights IIRC. > > > On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:26 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > > > On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 17:57:35 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: > >> On Jul 1, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > >>> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: > >>>> Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least > >>>> not from the 1970s and on. ... > >>> > >>> Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we > >>> used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used > >>> since long before that. > >> > >> When I learned film photography in the mid 1980s the darkroom had > >> red lights. Of course it was a very old darkroom in a middle school, > >> so I'm sure that _adequate_ darkrooms had better equipment. > > > > Hmm. Any idea how old the equipment is? I suppose you wouldn't > > expect people to replace existing, functional equipment without good > > reason. > > > > Greg > > -- > > Sent from my desktop computer. > > Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. > > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php > > -- > voice: +1.512.784.7526 e-mail: sauer at technologists.com > fax: +1.512.346.5240 web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ > Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer > -- --- Larry McVoy Retired to fishing http://www.mcvoy.com/lm/boat From grog at lemis.com Sat Jul 2 12:43:10 2022 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 12:43:10 +1000 Subject: [COFF] Safelights (was: "9 skills our grandkids won't have") In-Reply-To: <20220702023502.GE11191@mcvoy.com> References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> <20220701004118.GA22338@tau1.ceti.pl> <67e0d22c-e70b-e9bb-4614-eb1426bf2bd0@gmail.com> <20220702000828.GB32390@eureka.lemis.com> <20220702012641.GA84351@eureka.lemis.com> <20220702023502.GE11191@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: <20220702024310.GC84351@eureka.lemis.com> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 19:35:02 -0700, Larry McVoy wrote: > On Fri, Jul 01, 2022 at 09:24:28PM -0500, Charles H. Sauer wrote: >>> On Jul 1, 2022, at 8:26 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>> >>> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 17:57:35 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: >>>> On Jul 1, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>>>> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: >>>>>> Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least >>>>>> not from the 1970s and on. ... >>>>> >>>>> Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we >>>>> used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used >>>>> since long before that. >>>> >>>> When I learned film photography in the mid 1980s the darkroom had >>>> red lights. Of course it was a very old darkroom in a middle school, >>>> so I'm sure that _adequate_ darkrooms had better equipment. >>> >>> Hmm. Any idea how old the equipment is? I suppose you wouldn't >>> expect people to replace existing, functional equipment without good >>> reason. >> >> I recall three darkrooms that I used, in 1960 a makeshift one in >> bathroom in my home, a regular one in an armory in Greenbelt MD >> about the same time, and one in the student union at UT Austin >> about 1970. All three used red lights IIRC. > > I was a photography nerd in the 1980's and we used red lights. As nerdy > as I was, I remember those times with fond memories. Something special > about putting the paper in the mix and seeing the picture come out of > nowhere. And the power you had with dodging to bring what you wanted > into focus. Hmm. Strange. Maybe it's a USA thing. I *have* seen a red safelight (I bought a red filter for our school safelight just for the fun of it), but I can't recall anybody using one in earnest. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at horsfall.org Sat Jul 2 12:49:49 2022 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 12:49:49 +1000 (EST) Subject: [COFF] Safelights (was: "9 skills our grandkids won't have") In-Reply-To: <20220702023502.GE11191@mcvoy.com> References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> <20220701004118.GA22338@tau1.ceti.pl> <67e0d22c-e70b-e9bb-4614-eb1426bf2bd0@gmail.com> <20220702000828.GB32390@eureka.lemis.com> <20220702012641.GA84351@eureka.lemis.com> <20220702023502.GE11191@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2022, Larry McVoy wrote: > I was a photography nerd in the 1980's and we used red lights. As nerdy > as I was, I remember those times with fond memories. Something special > about putting the paper in the mix and seeing the picture come out of > nowhere. And the power you had with dodging to bring what you wanted > into focus. Ah, dodging... Well I remember my early photo days in the late 60s (including developing my film in the wardrobe with a blanket over everything and fixing them with diluted vinegar). Then years later I discovered that my Uni had a photo lab replete with enlarger and glazer :-) Or taking your 110 film to the local chemist (and there'd better not be any "naughty" pics on them, otherwise you wouldn't get them back). And the yellow envelopes that came with every roll of Kodak colour slides (which no longer seem to be able to be processed; I have a roll with Halley's Comet on it). The youngsters these days wouldn't know what we're talking about, of course... -- Dave From drb at msu.edu Sat Jul 2 13:39:07 2022 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2022 23:39:07 -0400 Subject: [COFF] "9 skills our grandkids won't have" - Is this a TUHS topic Message-ID: <20220702033907.F04FA4154FF@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at > > least not from the 1970s and on. ... > Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we > used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used > since long before that. Another thing that the film industry > continually gets wrong. It really isn't true that red filters quit being used. Some materials are not sensitive to the broader spectrum of an amber light, making it feasible to use one. The broader spectrum is probably easier for many people to work under. Some manufacturers recommend amber safelights on the strength of improved working conditions even for materials where an amber safelight is marginal. But some materials _are_ sensitive to parts of the amber, or even to the whole visible spectrum, and other types of filter (or even no light at all) must be used. A quick perusal of B&H stock indicates that lots of red safelights are still offered. De From drb at msu.edu Sat Jul 2 13:39:59 2022 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 01 Jul 2022 23:39:59 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Safelights (was: "9 skills our grandkids won't have") Message-ID: <20220702033959.118FF415A18@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > The youngsters these days wouldn't know what we're talking about, of > course... Not about most of it. Bet they do get dodging and burning, though. The terms are used in image editing programs. De From athornton at gmail.com Sat Jul 2 15:21:49 2022 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2022 22:21:49 -0700 Subject: [COFF] Safelights (was: "9 skills our grandkids won't have") In-Reply-To: <20220702012641.GA84351@eureka.lemis.com> References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> <20220701004118.GA22338@tau1.ceti.pl> <67e0d22c-e70b-e9bb-4614-eb1426bf2bd0@gmail.com> <20220702000828.GB32390@eureka.lemis.com> <20220702012641.GA84351@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: No idea at all how old it was. I mean, a) I was a kid, and b) it was the first darkroom I'd ever seen so I had no basis of comparison. I'm sure it was at least one and maybe more generations of hand-me-down by the time I got to use it. But, I mean, "good enough for middle school kids, and we got it for free" was probably good enough, right? Adam > On Jul 1, 2022, at 6:26 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > > On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 17:57:35 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: >> On Jul 1, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: >>>> Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least >>>> not from the 1970s and on. ... >>> >>> Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we >>> used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used >>> since long before that. >> >> When I learned film photography in the mid 1980s the darkroom had >> red lights. Of course it was a very old darkroom in a middle school, >> so I'm sure that _adequate_ darkrooms had better equipment. > > Hmm. Any idea how old the equipment is? I suppose you wouldn't > expect people to replace existing, functional equipment without good > reason. > > Greg > -- > Sent from my desktop computer. > Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. > See complete headers for address and phone numbers. > This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program > reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php From grog at lemis.com Sat Jul 2 15:35:28 2022 From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey) Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2022 15:35:28 +1000 Subject: [COFF] Safelights (was: "9 skills our grandkids won't have") In-Reply-To: References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> <20220701004118.GA22338@tau1.ceti.pl> <67e0d22c-e70b-e9bb-4614-eb1426bf2bd0@gmail.com> <20220702000828.GB32390@eureka.lemis.com> <20220702012641.GA84351@eureka.lemis.com> Message-ID: <20220702053528.GF84351@eureka.lemis.com> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 22:21:49 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: >> On Jul 1, 2022, at 6:26 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >> >> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 17:57:35 -0700, Adam Thornton wrote: >>> On Jul 1, 2022, at 5:08 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: >>>> On Friday, 1 July 2022 at 20:12:44 +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote: >>>>> Except that we didn't use red light in our darkrooms at all, at least >>>>> not from the 1970s and on. ... >>>> >>>> Correct. I started darkroom work in 1964, and from the beginning we >>>> used amber safelights. I don't think red safelights have been used >>>> since long before that. >>> >>> When I learned film photography in the mid 1980s the darkroom had >>> red lights. Of course it was a very old darkroom in a middle school, >>> so I'm sure that _adequate_ darkrooms had better equipment. >> >> Hmm. Any idea how old the equipment is? I suppose you wouldn't >> expect people to replace existing, functional equipment without good >> reason. > > No idea at all how old it was. I mean, a) I was a kid, and b) it > was the first darkroom I'd ever seen so I had no basis of comparison. > I'm sure it was at least one and maybe more generations of > hand-me-down by the time I got to use it. But, I mean, "good enough > for middle school kids, and we got it for free" was probably good > enough, right? Yes, of course. I was just curious. But in the meantime many have reported using red safelights, so the answer's not that relevant. I dug back into my records, and found that I bought an OB (amber) and 3 (dark green, for panchro) safelight filter for the school darkroom on 19 May 1965. No mention of a red filter yet. And https://www.kodak.com/content/products-brochures/Film/Safelight-Recommendations.pdf agrees with me that amber is the most appropriate colour for black and white print paper. I wonder why red safelights were so prevalent. Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA.php -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dave at horsfall.org Sun Jul 3 11:09:29 2022 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 11:09:29 +1000 (EST) Subject: [COFF] Safelights (was: "9 skills our grandkids won't have") In-Reply-To: <20220702033959.118FF415A18@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20220702033959.118FF415A18@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Jul 2022, Dennis Boone wrote: > Not about most of it. Bet they do get dodging and burning, though. > The terms are used in image editing programs. How about solarising? That's where you sort of expose the print to light part way through processing, to produce a sort of reverse image (I know it's a bit vague, but it's been yonks since I was involved). -- Dave From skogtun at gmail.com Sun Jul 3 19:49:16 2022 From: skogtun at gmail.com (Harald Arnesen) Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2022 11:49:16 +0200 Subject: [COFF] Safelights (was: "9 skills our grandkids won't have") In-Reply-To: References: <20220702033959.118FF415A18@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4dd7e809-7a11-3c58-4521-5f6e6a95181d@gmail.com> Dave Horsfall [03/07/2022 03.09]: > On Fri, 1 Jul 2022, Dennis Boone wrote: > >> Not about most of it. Bet they do get dodging and burning, though. >> The terms are used in image editing programs. > > How about solarising? That's where you sort of expose the print to light > part way through processing, to produce a sort of reverse image (I know > it's a bit vague, but it's been yonks since I was involved). To nitpick, that is really the sabattier effect (after Armand Sabatier, so it should really be with just one 't'). Real solarisation is an extreme overexposure, the usual example is the sun appearing black. -- Hilsen Harald Слава Україні! From coff at tuhs.org Wed Jul 6 19:00:54 2022 From: coff at tuhs.org (Peter Jeremy via COFF) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 19:00:54 +1000 Subject: [COFF] Safelights (was: "9 skills our grandkids won't have") In-Reply-To: References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> <20220701004118.GA22338@tau1.ceti.pl> <67e0d22c-e70b-e9bb-4614-eb1426bf2bd0@gmail.com> <20220702000828.GB32390@eureka.lemis.com> <20220702012641.GA84351@eureka.lemis.com> <20220702023502.GE11191@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: On 2022-Jul-02 12:49:49 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote: >the yellow envelopes that came with every roll of Kodak colour slides >(which no longer seem to be able to be processed; I have a roll with >Halley's Comet on it). Kodachrome processing ceased in 2010: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodachrome#Cessation_of_processing -- Peter Jeremy -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 963 bytes Desc: not available URL: From halbert at halwitz.org Thu Jul 7 00:06:45 2022 From: halbert at halwitz.org (Dan Halbert) Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2022 10:06:45 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Kodachrome [was Re: Safelights (was: "9 skills our grandkids won't have")] In-Reply-To: References: <180245D1-0DCD-4C2C-A26A-EF68578FD548@canb.auug.org.au> <20220701004118.GA22338@tau1.ceti.pl> <67e0d22c-e70b-e9bb-4614-eb1426bf2bd0@gmail.com> <20220702000828.GB32390@eureka.lemis.com> <20220702012641.GA84351@eureka.lemis.com> <20220702023502.GE11191@mcvoy.com> Message-ID: <34f8cf89-7a02-23b6-f8c5-fd5dec9cce28@halwitz.org> On 7/6/22 05:00, Peter Jeremy via COFF wrote: > On 2022-Jul-02 12:49:49 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote: >> the yellow envelopes that came with every roll of Kodak colour slides >> (which no longer seem to be able to be processed; I have a roll with >> Halley's Comet on it). > Kodachrome processing ceased in 2010: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kodachrome#Cessation_of_processing > Kodachrome can be developed as black and white. These places and maybe more do it: https://processonephoto.com/kodachrome-processing.htm https://www.thecamerashop.com/imagecenter/kodachrome35.html http://rockymountainfilm.com/k14oldslide.htm (6-12 months turnaround?!) Someone has been working on color development, in fits and starts: https://emulsive.org/articles/darkroom/developing-film/they-took-my-kodachrome-away-so-i-brought-it-back From rtomek at ceti.pl Fri Jul 8 17:40:50 2022 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2022 09:40:50 +0200 Subject: [COFF] Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft Message-ID: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> Well, what the title says. Some folks here wandered what the future may be. I suppose destroying Linux, or making it irrelevant. What would happened, if systemd development went in two ways, one gnu-licenced and the other commercial? https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Systemd-Creator-Microsoft -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From mc at hack.org Fri Jul 8 20:26:23 2022 From: mc at hack.org (Michael Cardell Widerkrantz) Date: Fri, 08 Jul 2022 12:26:23 +0200 Subject: [COFF] Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> Tomasz Rola , 2022-07-08 09:40 (+0200): > Well, what the title says. Some folks here wandered what the future > may be. I suppose destroying Linux, or making it irrelevant. Microsoft of today is really not the Microsoft of the 1990s. There are a lot of people at MSFT working on Linux in different forms. > What would happened, if systemd development went in two ways, one > gnu-licenced and the other commercial? I suppose more distributions would look at the alternatives like OpenRC or S6. -- MC, https://hack.org/mc/ From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Jul 9 10:29:07 2022 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 02:29:07 +0200 Subject: [COFF] Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> Message-ID: <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> On Fri, Jul 08, 2022 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz wrote: > Tomasz Rola , 2022-07-08 09:40 (+0200): > > > Well, what the title says. Some folks here wandered what the future > > may be. I suppose destroying Linux, or making it irrelevant. > > Microsoft of today is really not the Microsoft of the 1990s. There are a > lot of people at MSFT working on Linux in different forms. If you know this first hand, then great. I admit, after 1995 I have only used anything MS about few times a year or so. The experience was always a bit miserable - my index finger got stiff from constant clicking, my mouse-arm got tired from precision moves etc. You may thing I am exagerrating, in such case try moving your finger up and down for an hour - I was just trying to port my Linux workflow under Windows, and I am sure if I really had to work under Windows, I would have invented some shortcuts to save my finger. But I digress. You wrote, MS is not the same as in 1990. I think, sure, thirty years later, they would not be the same. But you seem to imply that "so old-thinking guys are out of the doors already". This might be. However, I am more likely to believe that "old thinking guys" made sure to hire new guys who would be able to get the torch from their cold hands and carry on. On the surface, a business is all new ("hey we hire new people every day"). Under the surface, a business is almost the same ("why change something that works so well"). > > What would happened, if systemd development went in two ways, one > > gnu-licenced and the other commercial? > > I suppose more distributions would look at the alternatives like OpenRC > or S6. Maybe. I am still trying to evaluate various alternatives to Debian and I am not so sure. Debian was so bloody good (for me) that finding alternative is hard (especially that I expect to do something with computer at the same time). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From ama at ugr.es Sat Jul 9 11:52:30 2022 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel M Alganza) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 03:52:30 +0200 Subject: [COFF] Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: Hello, Tomasz, On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 02:29:07AM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote: >Maybe. I am still trying to evaluate various alternatives to Debian >and I am not so sure. Debian was so bloody good (for me) that finding >alternative is hard (especially that I expect to do something with >computer at the same time). https://www.devuan.org/ Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd that allows users to reclaim control over their system by avoiding unnecessary entanglements and ensuring Init Freedom. Cheers, Ángel From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Jul 9 18:35:53 2022 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 10:35:53 +0200 Subject: [COFF] Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20220709083552.GC28363@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 03:52:30AM +0200, Angel M Alganza wrote: > Hello, Tomasz, > [...] > Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd that allows > users to reclaim control over their system by avoiding > unnecessary entanglements and ensuring Init Freedom. Thank you. I have Devuan on a (very short) list. Right now I am testing a systemd based Debian derivative, to see what I will be missing. Testing takes time etc. I am not very impressed, so far. During last months, nothing I would like to have so much that I would go with systemd. It just behaves predictably, which is a lot, but not really lot. After all, it is still a Linux. However, performance seems to be worse. I have a really old (like, decade) desktop with really antique Debian (pre-systemd) and it seems to behave faster than a newish (bought from second hand) laptop with integrated CPU/GPU and Parrot installed on it. The clocks - I always downclock as a rule. So old Debian is clocked @800MHz and Parrot @1100MHz. Hence Parrot really could do a bit more, but nope. Feels sluggish, but I might be making this up. After all, I do not like the whole idea of systemd and stuff. Well, a small difference - Debian runs on four cores, and Parrot cannot. On four cores it overheats and shuts down whenever I try to use it - be it computing control sums or compiling. In order to be any usable at all I have to boot it with maxcpus=1. This probably tells more about quality of laptop than Parrot. But I will see more when I install something else on it. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From ama at ugr.es Sat Jul 9 18:59:16 2022 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel M Alganza) Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2022 10:59:16 +0200 Subject: [COFF] Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: <20220709083552.GC28363@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> <20220709083552.GC28363@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 10:35:53AM +0200, Tomasz Rola wrote: >Thank you. I have Devuan on a (very short) list. Right now I am >testing a systemd based Debian derivative, to see what I will be Well, Devuan isn't really a Debian based (different) distro. It actually is Debian without SystemD, as it used to be. Also, it is maintained by a few of previously Debian devs. Cheers, Ángel From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Jul 11 07:39:58 2022 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2022 14:39:58 -0700 Subject: [COFF] Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: <20220709083552.GC28363@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> <20220709083552.GC28363@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <2598435A-B098-4449-9327-86BE981A2CD0@eschatologist.net> On Jul 9, 2022, at 1:35 AM, Tomasz Rola wrote: > > However, performance seems to be worse. There's a reason replacements for init and /etc/rc like launchd, upstart, and systemd exist. I just wish Linux hadn't rolled its own and had gone with launchd. Of course, that'd have also required having a reasonable kernel-level IPC system like Mach. -- Chris From steffen at sdaoden.eu Tue Jul 12 00:11:14 2022 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 16:11:14 +0200 Subject: [COFF] Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: <2598435A-B098-4449-9327-86BE981A2CD0@eschatologist.net> References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> <20220709083552.GC28363@tau1.ceti.pl> <2598435A-B098-4449-9327-86BE981A2CD0@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <20220711141114.ucp3b%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Chris Hanson wrote in <2598435A-B098-4449-9327-86BE981A2CD0 at eschatologist.net>: |On Jul 9, 2022, at 1:35 AM, Tomasz Rola wrote: |> |> However, performance seems to be worse. | |There's a reason replacements for init and /etc/rc like launchd, upstart, \ |and systemd exist. | |I just wish Linux hadn't rolled its own and had gone with launchd. \ |Of course, that'd have also required having a reasonable kernel-level \ |IPC system like Mach. Oh! I finally find a second good thing of systemd: it does not use XML resource files! The other is the "startup-completed" notification of fork-fork- away daemons via socket, but of course the daemons have to be especially coded to use that. The third is that administrators can play easy? But they do need ansible, puppet or whatever there is (i am luckily no admin). I do not give in the fourth, as of course you can integrate anything into one via dynamic modules, and it gives you a bit. With just four separate programs running? Like kernel, systemd, emacs and a graphical web browser? I personally see three errors here, but do not get away without the browser myself. To me the problem is that you always have those trains that everybody jumps on. You could pimp login(1) to use "reap control", like Linux prctl(2) PR_SET_CHILD_SUBREAPER, and FreeBSD's procctl(2) does that even better (with _STATUS, _GETPIDS, _KILL available). You could integrate PAM to use REAP if sessions get used. (PAM is a desaster because it does not, actually. As i found out. Heh.) You could offer some additional inittab(5) keywords that do this reaping, that unshare daemons early, in effect something like [filesystem overlay setup] cd / ip netns exec ${netns} \ /usr/bin/env -i TERM=${TERM} DISPLAY=${DISPLAY} \ /usr/bin/unshare --ipc --uts --pid --fork \ --mount --mount-proc ${kill_child} \ ${rooter} ${prog} And then you have the isolation from a normal POSIX shell level. But no, all these things are left behind and noone cares no more, even though it would be relatively easy to integrate all these isolation and control techniques into small and UNIXish environments. Only corpses! At least in Linux user space land. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From mc at hack.org Tue Jul 12 07:04:51 2022 From: mc at hack.org (Michael Cardell Widerkrantz) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2022 23:04:51 +0200 Subject: [COFF] Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <87a69f2wek.fsf@hack.org> Tomasz Rola , 2022-07-09 02:29 (+0200): > On Fri, Jul 08, 2022 at 12:26:23PM +0200, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz wrote: >> Tomasz Rola , 2022-07-08 09:40 (+0200): >> >> > Well, what the title says. Some folks here wandered what the future >> > may be. I suppose destroying Linux, or making it irrelevant. >> >> Microsoft of today is really not the Microsoft of the 1990s. There are a >> lot of people at MSFT working on Linux in different forms. > > If you know this first hand, then great. I do. I have friends at Microsoft. > I admit, after 1995 I have only used anything MS about few times a > year or so. Ha! I haven't actually used anything from Microsoft for a long time. Last time I was forced to was in 2004, I think. I even had to use Word! When I found VBacs which turned MS Word into a resemblance of Emacs my productivity soured. https://www.rath.ca/Misc/VBacs/ SWMBO has a Windows laptop, though, so I still see it sometimes. >> I suppose more distributions would look at the alternatives like OpenRC >> or S6. > > Maybe. I am still trying to evaluate various alternatives to Debian > and I am not so sure. Alpine is very popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've heard. https://www.alpinelinux.org/ -- MC, https://hack.org/mc/ From dave at horsfall.org Tue Jul 12 09:01:00 2022 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:01:00 +1000 (EST) Subject: [COFF] Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: <87a69f2wek.fsf@hack.org> References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> <87a69f2wek.fsf@hack.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Jul 2022, Michael Cardell Widerkrantz wrote: > Ha! I haven't actually used anything from Microsoft for a long time. > Last time I was forced to was in 2004, I think. I even had to use Word! > When I found VBacs which turned MS Word into a resemblance of Emacs my > productivity soured. My home is now 100% M$-free; the last time I had to use it was to update the firmware on a GPS device which is now useless because of the GPS rollover bug. In the meantime, WINE works quite well. > Alpine is very popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've heard. > > https://www.alpinelinux.org/ Alpine? Where do Penguin/OS users get off using the name of a well-known MUA (the one I'm using now)? -- Dave From michael at kjorling.se Tue Jul 12 17:58:48 2022 From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 07:58:48 +0000 Subject: [COFF] Alpine, was: Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> <87a69f2wek.fsf@hack.org> Message-ID: On 12 Jul 2022 09:01 +1000, from dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall): >> Alpine is very popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've heard. > > Alpine? Where do Penguin/OS users get off using the name of a well-known > MUA (the one I'm using now)? If Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later. "Initial release August 2005" as compared to "Initial release December 20, 2007" to say nothing of all the other uses -- Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?” From athornton at gmail.com Wed Jul 13 01:34:21 2022 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 08:34:21 -0700 Subject: [COFF] Alpine, was: Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> <87a69f2wek.fsf@hack.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 12:59 AM Michael Kjörling wrote: > On 12 Jul 2022 09:01 +1000, from dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall): > >> Alpine is very popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've heard. > > > > Alpine? Where do Penguin/OS users get off using the name of a > well-known > > MUA (the one I'm using now)? > If Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later. > "Initial release August 2005" > as compared to > "Initial release > December 20, 2007" > > Yeah well where do those file compression Johnny-come-latelies get off on stealing the name of an Infocom-format Z-machine interpreter? Adam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mc at hack.org Wed Jul 13 01:56:15 2022 From: mc at hack.org (Michael Cardell Widerkrantz) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:56:15 +0200 Subject: [COFF] Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: <87a69f2wek.fsf@hack.org> References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> <87a69f2wek.fsf@hack.org> Message-ID: <874jzm2ulc.fsf@hack.org> Michael Cardell Widerkrantz , 2022-07-11 23:04 (+0200): > When I found VBacs which turned MS Word into a resemblance of Emacs my > productivity soured. Ahem. "soared". But funny misspelling. I was definitely turning sour by being forced to use Windows. Thankfully I dual booted. -- MC, https://hack.org/mc/ From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jul 13 05:48:01 2022 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 19:48:01 +0000 Subject: [COFF] Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: <874jzm2ulc.fsf@hack.org> (Michael Cardell Widerkrantz's message of "Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:56:15 +0200") References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> <87a69f2wek.fsf@hack.org> <874jzm2ulc.fsf@hack.org> Message-ID: <7w7d4i2jv2.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Michael Cardell Widerkrantz wrote: >> When I found VBacs which turned MS Word into a resemblance of Emacs >> my productivity soured. > Ahem. "soared". I think a combination of soured and soared sounds very appropriate. From steffen at sdaoden.eu Wed Jul 13 08:02:55 2022 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 00:02:55 +0200 Subject: [COFF] Alpine, was: Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> <87a69f2wek.fsf@hack.org> Message-ID: <20220712220255.ME587%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Adam Thornton wrote in : |On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 12:59 AM Michael Kjörling |wrote: |> On 12 Jul 2022 09:01 +1000, from dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall): |>>> Alpine is very popular. It's using OpenRC and eyeing S6, I've heard. |>> |>> Alpine? Where do Penguin/OS users get off using the name of a |> well-known |>> MUA (the one I'm using now)? |> If Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later. |> "Initial release August \ |> 2005" |> as compared to |> "Initial release |> December 20, 2007" | |Yeah well where do those file compression Johnny-come-latelies get off on |stealing the name of an Infocom-format Z-machine interpreter? I "always" thought of it as a "You can call me Al" extension, or better continuation, of the Pine mailer with the Pico editor (that i liked), which are much, much older. (TonyPine would have been an alternative: "Fix it again Tony".) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From dave at horsfall.org Wed Jul 13 09:34:12 2022 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 09:34:12 +1000 (EST) Subject: [COFF] Alpine, was: Systemd Creator Lands At Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> <87a69f2wek.fsf@hack.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jul 2022, Michael Kjörling wrote: > If Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later. > "Initial release August 2005" > as compared to > "Initial release December 20, 2007" Any fool can update Wikipedia (and they do). I give you PINE (Alpine's (predecessor): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_(email_client) 1992... I've been using it (then Alpine) since about then. -- Dave From michael at kjorling.se Wed Jul 13 17:36:37 2022 From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=) Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2022 07:36:37 +0000 Subject: [COFF] Alpine In-Reply-To: References: <20220708074049.GB3053@tau1.ceti.pl> <87mtdj3now.fsf@hack.org> <20220709002907.GB28363@tau1.ceti.pl> <87a69f2wek.fsf@hack.org> Message-ID: On 13 Jul 2022 09:34 +1000, from dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall): >> If Wikipedia is to be believed, the MUA came later. >> "Initial release August 2005" >> as compared to >> "Initial release December 20, 2007" > > Any fool can update Wikipedia (and they do). > > I give you PINE (Alpine's (predecessor): > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pine_(email_client) > > 1992... I've been using it (then Alpine) since about then. Sure; I used Pine in 1995-1996 or so, and then again around 2001-2002, so yes, Pine clearly predates a Linux distribution with an initial release in mid-2005. But your post was about _Alpine_, not _Pine_ (or at least, I can't immediately find any "Pine Linux", whereas Alpine Linux is rather well-known), so that's what I was responding to. -- Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?” From stuff at riddermarkfarm.ca Mon Jul 25 09:30:22 2022 From: stuff at riddermarkfarm.ca (Stuff Received) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2022 19:30:22 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Awk, not Kaw? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38805096-4f49-884c-8896-a1cfcf433b43@riddermarkfarm.ca> As I was (re)reading Bentley's "More Programming Pearls", I saw the following in Sect. 2.6, Further Reading: "Aho, Kernighan, and Weinberger designed and built the original Awk language in 1977. (Whatever you do, don't permute the initials of their last names!)" The exclamation mark seems to indicate a background story.  Anyone know it? N. From crossd at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 10:33:49 2022 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2022 20:33:49 -0400 Subject: [COFF] Awk, not Kaw? In-Reply-To: <38805096-4f49-884c-8896-a1cfcf433b43@riddermarkfarm.ca> References: <38805096-4f49-884c-8896-a1cfcf433b43@riddermarkfarm.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 24, 2022 at 7:30 PM Stuff Received wrote: > As I was (re)reading Bentley's "More Programming Pearls", I saw the > following in Sect. 2.6, Further Reading: "Aho, Kernighan, and Weinberger > designed and built the original Awk language in 1977. (Whatever you do, > don't permute the initials of their last names!)" > > The exclamation mark seems to indicate a background story. Anyone know it? I once asked Aho about this when I was a student (his compilers class was one of the few CS courses I took). He said they would meet in a room and people would walk by and stick their heads in and say, "AWK! AWK! AWK!" as a kind of joke, and the name came from that. `akw` seems like the most promising alternative, for no other reason than that the initials are alphabetized. `kaw` feels a bit silly, sounding like the noise that a crow makes. I suspect "awk" was the closest to pronounceable without seeming unduly goofy. - Dan C. From skogtun at gmail.com Mon Jul 25 19:47:51 2022 From: skogtun at gmail.com (Harald Arnesen) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2022 11:47:51 +0200 Subject: [COFF] Awk, not Kaw? In-Reply-To: References: <38805096-4f49-884c-8896-a1cfcf433b43@riddermarkfarm.ca> Message-ID: <1a0f8f01-3a23-46f3-329a-6511e308b4d1@gmail.com> Dan Cross [25/07/2022 02.33]: > `akw` seems like the most promising alternative, for > no other reason than that the initials are alphabetized. > `kaw` feels a bit silly, sounding like the noise that a > crow makes. > > I suspect "awk" was the closest to pronounceable > without seeming unduly goofy. Whether a crow cries "kaw" or "awk" is open to discussion...in Norwegian, it says "kra". I have always thought the name was a play on the bird "auk". The Book even has a picture of this creature on the cover. -- Hilsen Harald From athornton at gmail.com Tue Jul 26 03:36:25 2022 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2022 10:36:25 -0700 Subject: [COFF] Awk, not Kaw? In-Reply-To: <1a0f8f01-3a23-46f3-329a-6511e308b4d1@gmail.com> References: <38805096-4f49-884c-8896-a1cfcf433b43@riddermarkfarm.ca> <1a0f8f01-3a23-46f3-329a-6511e308b4d1@gmail.com> Message-ID: I mean let's look at this logically. We only have six possibilities: AWK: well, it won. It's easy to pronounce. It does sound like an extinct flightless bird, which is helpful in a world in which ORA is going to come along with its distinctive product line book covers. AKW: unpronounceable, but probably would have turned into "ak-dub". Nah. KWA: I like this one. But then I'm a fan of Waiting For Godot. KAW: Well, yeah, the ORA cover would have been a crow. Just about as good as AWK, really. WKA: "wocka wocka" is the noise Pac-man makes. Unfortunately the program predated the video game by three years. Would have been a great ORA cover though. WAK: "This language is WAK" would have been excellent marketing. I'm a little sorry this one didn't win. Adam On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 2:49 AM Harald Arnesen wrote: > > Dan Cross [25/07/2022 02.33]: > > > `akw` seems like the most promising alternative, for > > no other reason than that the initials are alphabetized. > > `kaw` feels a bit silly, sounding like the noise that a > > crow makes. > > > > I suspect "awk" was the closest to pronounceable > > without seeming unduly goofy. > > Whether a crow cries "kaw" or "awk" is open to discussion...in > Norwegian, it says "kra". > > I have always thought the name was a play on the bird "auk". The Book > even has a picture of this creature on the cover. > -- > Hilsen Harald > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave at horsfall.org Fri Jul 29 14:28:19 2022 From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2022 14:28:19 +1000 (EST) Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] SNOBOL and RATSNO In-Reply-To: <1E44D7CE-CC4D-4F86-97CC-208E3972A785@msweng.com> References: <1oF87S-4zW-00@marmaro.de> <8NgHeeJiYEBE0zhtd9RdKIeYWcAwtxsnAj7YhVIvLpz-yt0__LeFvVzNNGgSNTeDGnVQy-qxkoHWvmRi84ybYyNAiMRDJuVoAaEG96UAu4s=@protonmail.com> <20220724190253.GA23421@tau1.ceti.pl> <20220728003014.GB6195@tau1.ceti.pl> <202207280103.26S13ZL5059300@ultimate.com> <1E44D7CE-CC4D-4F86-97CC-208E3972A785@msweng.com> Message-ID: I did get SPITBOL to work past its expiry date on OS/360 :-) It was dubbed as the "Superzap of the year" by one of my CompSci lecturers (Dr. G.McMahon, UNSW). The first couple of time-bombs were easy to find, but not so the rest (long story). Probably belongs over on COFF now... -- Dave From bill at CORCORAN.LIFE Sat Jul 30 01:46:52 2022 From: bill at CORCORAN.LIFE (William Corcoran) Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2022 15:46:52 +0000 Subject: [COFF] [TUHS] SNOBOL and RATSNO In-Reply-To: References: <1oF87S-4zW-00@marmaro.de> <8NgHeeJiYEBE0zhtd9RdKIeYWcAwtxsnAj7YhVIvLpz-yt0__LeFvVzNNGgSNTeDGnVQy-qxkoHWvmRi84ybYyNAiMRDJuVoAaEG96UAu4s=@protonmail.com> <20220724190253.GA23421@tau1.ceti.pl> <20220728003014.GB6195@tau1.ceti.pl> <202207280103.26S13ZL5059300@ultimate.com> <1E44D7CE-CC4D-4F86-97CC-208E3972A785@msweng.com>, Message-ID: Q: why should you always add a salt to your SNOBOL keys? A: it makes your code super-cool. Truly, Bill Corcoran > On Jul 29, 2022, at 12:28 AM, Dave Horsfall wrote: > > I did get SPITBOL to work past its expiry date on OS/360 :-) It was > dubbed as the "Superzap of the year" by one of my CompSci lecturers (Dr. > G.McMahon, UNSW). > > The first couple of time-bombs were easy to find, but not so the rest > (long story). > > Probably belongs over on COFF now... > > -- Dave